Mantic Fanatics

Perhaps I am an old fuddy-duddy, but I am becoming distressed with the level of whining on the Mantic board. 

"Boohoo! My rulebook isn't here yet!"

"Boohoo! I don't like that rule!"

"Boohoo! I have to wait for my miniatures!"

"Boohoo! Alex Holker doesn't like my idea!"

CRAP!
 
  Just put a lid on it and wait your turn!  All manufactured things take time.  Even your Mommy takes time to get things done.  If you don't believe me, just climb out of her basement and go ask her!
  If you don't like the rules, don't play them!  Or better yet, write your own "perfect rules" so the rest of the world can savage them.  You'll find it isn't so easy to be the author when thousands of internet trolls descend upon you and your hard work.  Do you think that proposing rule changes now is a bit late?  Like really, really late?  The books are printed.  What do you want them to do, make changes in crayon for you before they ship the book? Or maybe make changes between the printings?   Really?
  Perhaps you want them to magic your miniatures into existence?  Or maybe if you wish really hard they will appear under your pillow in your Mommy's basement!
  And who care what Alex Holker thinks? He's a git-troll anyway!  He's another one that ought to write his own rules and make his own miniatures so that the world can do to them what he does to everything Mantic.

CRAP!

There, I am all better now!
Still think Holker is a git-troll!

And this is an example of why this little forum is still here.

We all need a place to vent every now and then that is off of Mantics official forum. :D

That's the downside of getting more popular. Yes you get more fans, but you also get more whiners, more detractors, more werewolf armies...

Darsc has nailed it.

Popularity brings more whiners.  And whiners, much like fans, tend to post more than the average joe.  Throw in a healthy dose of people expecting KoW and Mantic to just be GW but cheaper, and you have a prescription for annoyance.

This is a refuge where we can share our opinions -- and the benefit is that most of the folks on here have proven a fondness for Mantic.  So if they don't glow about something, at least you can believe it may be a measured and thought-out disagreement.

I'm still clueless about what AH actually expects.  I'ms starting to honestly think he believes he should be their designer and they should just make whatever he wants, regardless of anyone else's opinion.

The rules part of the rant not justified, but +1 on the rest :)

Yeah, rules feedback is great. I do think it should be done based on IRL playtesting primarily though, unless it's something obvious (e.g. movement trays for warpath would speed up the game).

I don't look at the rules with the perspective of changing the rules, I just find it interesting to see if they can be explained more clearly and have their wordcount reduced further... not making any changes to the rules at all, just re-wording.

The Nerve change was a great example of something which completely removed a chunk of text and a table from the book, but didn't change the rules at all... that's the kind of thing we need to come up with as far as ideas.. little strokes of genius that make the game quicker/easier without actually changing anything at all.

It's refinement that is the interesting thing at this point of the KoW rules..might be interesting to see if we can release a version of KoW (under that new CC license) that doesn't change any of the rules, but is just as clear or clearer and cuts down the wordcount by 30-40%.

Something like that could then be given back to Mantic to let them make smaller mini-rulebooks, or quick reference sheets.

But that's an example of constructive stuff, as opposed to the Alex Holker approach of:

1. "Whine about Warpath, make rules suggestions".
2. "Alessio actually takes on board one suggestion and adds it to Warpath".
3. "Continue to whine because all of your ideas were not added".

His rule suggestion for Warpath (crushing strength for vehicles) wasn't the best of ideas either, since I keep seeing video battle reports for Warpath where everyone keeps mentioning how much more effective vehicles are when you just use them to run thing over instead of shooting with them.

As for everyone else, we're going to get a whole host of new people on the forums, so we're just going to have to deal with repeated discussions of things that we already talked about to death over a year ago.

Most of the newbies seem to be a good bunch though, I haven't seen much in the way of complaints or requests for the rules to become GW-lite... there's a few, but there's a lot more of them just posting awesome stuff like this:

http://forum.manticblog.com/showthread.php?1385-Mantic-Elf-bowmen-conversions-Bowmen-Spearmen-swap

I can't begin to imagine which Scotsman you are talking about there.  Break out the silver bullets!

I was big into DBA years ago.  Simple and elegant rules with a few quirks.  Since they covered 5000 years of land combat, there were situations and armies that didn't work the way history said they did in reality.  So, an intrepid group began a project to clarify DBA.  They turned 4 pages of rules into 40+ pages of clarification.  This pretty much sucked the fun out of the game for me.  I really don't want to see that here either.  I have faith that the fine folks on this forum will not do that, that we will come to a reasoned solution to the problems that arise.

As for new folks, I agree that we will suffer through teething pains.  I don't mind the reasoned argument.   I absolutely hate the "I just read the rules and here's what needs to be changed" argument.  So far, I haven't seen anything in KOW or WP that can't be overcome with the slightest application of common sense. 

Let's face it, KOW and WP are rules in their infancy that will have growing and teething pains.  In the final analysis, they are arguably the best rules out today for this level of gaming.  It will be interesting to see if they wander into the skirmish and monsterous battle levels.

Holker is a ****.  Even worse, he/she/it is a shackle dragging ****.

Anyone who can't fill in a simple survey is a ****.

Anyone who continually harps on about wanting hard plastic is a ****.

Anyone who doesn't like metal is a ****.

Anyone who doesn't like heavy metal is also a ****.

Anyone who praises paint jobs or conversions when the models still have visible mold lines is a ****.

Anyone who calls Games Workshop EE is a ****.

My boss who texted me this morning at 4am is a ****.

Anyone who goes on the internet and calls people cunts is a ****.

And I though I was cranky!   :)

I am a decal nazi.  I love picking decals out on models in various magazines that are proclaiming the wonderous paint job.  200 hours painting, 10 seconds putting on decals.  Project ruined!

Apparently, I can't type ****.  Hmmm, what about fascist?

Well, fascist came through.  I am a decal fascist since I can't type National Socialist.

So... we're whining about how much we hate whining?

I'm not cranky, just a ****!

Also people who link to blogs, when the Mantic website has their own blog... cunts!

I know! How hard can it be to break out the damned Microset and do it properly?

http://blog.winterdyne.co.uk/2010/12/applying-waterslide-decals-step-by-step.html

Yes we are.  What's your point? :D

The more refined answer would be that we are having a reasoned discussion concerning the disturbing trend of the newer members to the KOW community to foment unrest be placing unrealistic expectations on Mantic.

That and that they are a bunch of whining gits!

To be fair to the whining gits, Mantic announced a release date of June 25th which has long since passed. I don't understand why we can't see the new army lists when most of the pathfinders have copies of them.

I'm eager to get my hands on the new rulebook as well. but delays happen,
and it wil show up soon enough, as they started shipping them :)

as far as rules go, i always playtest the rules as they are in the book,
if we don't like the rules as they are, we try to bent or make up a rule
to replace it as we see fit. we certainly not whine about it on the internet.

if a rule doesn't work for you, replace it with a rule of your own creation or
bent the rule so you are happy with it.

some people seem to think that companies like mantic and GW are there to
make "costum rules" for them. you can't make everyone happy if you make
rules for thousands of people, simple as that.

Alex holker is the one person i immediately ignored when i saw he was on
the mantic forum, and thats all the time i spend on him.

Cheers

I realize this sentiment may be unpopular, but I was happy with with V2 of the rules (easy as I play Elves and Orcs, which have good artillery and no artillery respectively). I am sympathetic to those who don't understand 1) the huge regen nerf with no corresponding point reduction and 2) how elven artillery (particularly TK) has gone from being pretty good value for cost to being far outshone by the Undead catapaults point-for-point.

I'd really just like them to send out an email with a download link to the current .pdf of the rulebook to all the kickstarter backers who are entitled to it (which I imagine is most of them). I don't care how big the file is. I want to see the new rules and there are no shipping costs to send out a .pdf of the same rules that are already in some people's homes. Is it a bandwidth issue?

I'm kinda curious why Mantic hasn't put more stuff on WargameVault (just the first 3 journals are up there).

It works really well for keeping an up-to-date rulebook, every time you change the file you can send a notice to all of your customers that its update and they can redownload for free. (and free pdfs cost nothing to the publisher)

I was also happy with the v2 rules.  I will be happy with the current rules as written once I get back to playing.  Given the issues we all face in real life, a few difficulties or inconsistencies in my favorite hobby don't bother me all that much.

As for the changes to artillery and regen, I'd say that those came from playtesting, battle reports,  and a keen understanding of how the v2 rules could be and were cheesed.  It isn't easy to continually out-think thousands of people.  Just when you think you have the rule write so clearly that no one could misinterpret it, some jerk tears it apart and trashes up your game.  It is the unfortunate byproduct of publishing rules.

Hi,

Would this be the right place to discuss a proposed rules change to the Balefire Catapults?

 ;D

I've no idea what this thread is actually about anymore, but I'll allow it. ;D


Also, to keep the thread on/off topic depending on your point of view:
Mantics Kickstarter Jersey's = 8)
Euro Football Jersey's =  ???
Why didn't Mantic make them Hockey jerseys rant rant rant.

 ::)

If Hockey jerseys are slimming then yes!

Hockey Jerseys would have been quite cool, and unusual. I might have bought one if they had been... who am I kidding, I would still have spent the money on more toy soldiers  ;D

NO!
The Balefire rules are perfect! :)

We are ranting about ranting.  Stay on target!   :)

Oh good, this is the right place to talk about the Balefire's   :-*

Well where do I start? The imbalances of the latest version of the rules are just totally ridiculous. Everything is either over or under powered. The points are either to high or to low.  The nerf's are either to drastic, or not sufficient. And the...

Sorry? What do you mean have I read the new rules, or played a game with them yet?

Of course I haven't. I don't have the new rules yet. So how could I possibly read or play a game with them? 

:P ;D

Actually, I don't mind all the talk and suggestions about the new rules. It gives people something to talk about until they have the rules in their hands, and play some games with them. Once that starts to happen I'll take talk of imbalances a little more seriously, not much, but a little.

I'd just like to take this opportunity to demand that Mantic send their .pdf copy of the new rules back in time 3 weeks so that I don't have to spend all of those weeks complaining about it not having arrived yet.

Also, I demand that all my kickstarter stuff is delivered next week. I don't care if you have to cattle-prod Bob Naismith to keep him awake, do whatever it takes.

Hmm. I still think my favorite rant was from a week or two ago, maybe more, where the poster was complaining and asking why the new rules hadn't been playtested so Mantic could get some feedback before printing the new book. ::)

I actually wanted to hit him with the rock that he had been living under for the past 2 years. :-\

I saw that one also.  I had about the same thoughts as you did.  I guess that is the price for living in an internet world.  Let me know if you's like a rock from the USA.  We still make pretty good rocks. 

This made me think of this thread...

Sorry for jumping in but are you guys ranting about the full rulebook not being out or the smaller 32page rule book that was sent out in an e-mail about a week ago?

Mostly just ranting really.

Ranting about people ranting about stupid stuff like Balefires

And also ranting about people ranting about why no-one has received their kickstarter stuff yet, only two days after the Kickstarter survey deadline.

Well that's fair enough then I am waiting for a load of stuff maybe it's on the topic already but when is the 2nd (the one with our names) due out?

Some people just don't read. at each pledge level it has an estimation of when it arrives, with
earliest arrivals in july. I know i can expect my stuff in september at the earliest, just by reading.

Cheers
Tellos

**** them all, all cunts.

Rant over  :D

I am kidding :-\

Can we also rant here about the crappy mantic forum thats gone?

What twat broke it.

I mean FFS they DO have tech team dont they, I mean its not like they are a small company with so few staff that most of them are doing two jobs is it, well is it!
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I miss my forums :(

OH and just WHO the F**K IS this Alex person anyhow?

Oh, was I ranting? I thought I was posting if anyone had received their KS stuff yet, in an effort to gauge when people DID start receiving it, when Mantic was shipping certain pledge levels, etc. Maybe it's too much to be excited about, well, being excited about miniatures wargaming again?

Good thing I dropped by this forum. Was hoping to see some of the 'Mantic Fanatics' offer tactical advice or indepth knowledge of Mantic related stuff. Instead it's a wall of bitching.

Guess what. Mantic just got a thousand plus new fans through KS, all internet-savvy and probably all descending on the forums. These are the people that just gave Mantic a third of a million dollars to produce their next three years worth of releases in the next few months.

So, yeah guys, it makes a lot more sense to **** about new people being excited for great figs and great rules than to help acclimate them to the hobby. OMG I R SO UPSET PEEPUL ON FORUM ASKIN QUERSTIONS ABOUT MINIS N RULEZ AFTER DEY JUS GAVE MANTIC FIVE HUNNERT DOLLARZ

Doug

Some troll that doesn't like anything but small boobies.

Another troll...perhaps

Some ****!

You seem like a **** who obviously missed the point of this thread :)

Quote from: orcsbain on Today at 06:27:55 pm

OH and just WHO the F**K IS this Alex person anyhow?



TROOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLL :)

BASTERD!

SMALL BOOBIES!

UTTER BASTERD!!

TTFN

(http://fim.413chan.net/oatmeal/src/130611904830-you_seem_upset.jpg)

Seriously, though, welcome to the forums. Try not to take them too seriously. :)

Essentially he says he will buy/like everything mantic produces... prior to Mantic producing them. Then complains how if they had changed one or two things he really would have bought/liked them, but didn't. Don't get me started on Canberraguy though.....

The Mantic Fanatics are for folks with a sense of humour, sarcasm, satire, and general sillyness. All others need not apply. What happens amongst in the Mantic Fanatics stays in the Mantic Fanatics... Usually... Well sometimes...

Also, folks who don't appreciate what this site is about should also stay away from the Frothers forum as well as The Wastes subforum over on Warseer.

Yeah, if you can't handle here, you won't survive the trolls at Frothers.

And we get far fewer posts about goats and sheds.

Which is a good thing!

Judgedoug --

This is not an official Mantic forum.  It's an open forum, but it is, by and large, moderated by and used by people who have had a long experience with Mantic.  This is where people come to talk about stuff frankly and openly, and not clutter up Mantic's official forum with certain opinions or positions.

This forum is not designed as a cuddly-hug for new fans.

It's very much a "wadded-panty-free" zone. 

You're new to Mantic, and Mantic is thrilled to have you, and you're welcome to post here.  But if you do, you have to do it with the understanding that this particular forum is oriented more towards Mantic vets.  For instance, I've been following Mantic  since approximately Summer 2009.  (Probably somewhere between May and July, but I can't really pin it down precisely now.)  For the record, that was before they even attended their first Gen Con.  Other are of similar vintage, although some are newer.

So enjoy your stay, but realize this isn't like wandering into the Mantic clubhouse -- it's more like wandering into a bar and hearing a group of guys talking about Mantic over their shots and pints.

Just read a post from Canberraguy on Warseer.  Grrrrr!  Somebody lob a can of Foster's at his head!

I whois'ed and emailed their hosting company. They replied telling me it is down due to non-payment (maybe):


Which is all well and good, I have 40 Greatax, 30 Ax, and 30 Morax to assemble.

wrong often, i take it  ;D

Cool, thanks for looking into it. Send Chris an email with that info (chris.palmer@manticgames.com) and it'll make things a lot easier for him to sort out when gets back on Monday.

Just read that as "shorts and pants" :)
Strange mental pic indeed.

As for frothers, I love that place (leadaholic) where you can call a **** a **** (or even a decent bloke a ****) with no mods on your case :)

ttfn

Most of my life!

I've long suspected that Chris is the real power behind the throne at Mantic Towers. ;)

 If we're starting a discussion about pants vs shorts, then I'm voting shorts.

You guys don't know me from squat, so I realize my opinion isn't worth anything here, but man, I'd go a little easier on Judgedoug (who, to be clear, also doesn't know me from squat).  Kickstarter has really given Mantic a major boost and hey, that was an exciting month we just went through, right?  That's a good thing.  If he's pumped about Mantic (I know I am) and wants to chat about it... nothing wrong with that.  If he then discovers he's getting dissed in another forum, well, it seems kinda reasonable for him to be ticked about it.

Seems like he's getting ganged up on a bit more than warranted, that's all.  Seems like an okay guy to me, but as I said I have zero rep here, so... hopefully I sound reasonable.  That's the goal, anyway.  I wouldn't normally post something like this, but I'm thinking (a) this little kurfuffle seems unnecessary and (b) I bet if you met the guy at a Mantic event, you'd wind up being friends.  Just a guess, as I don't really know anyone involved.

I think from judgedoug's last couple of posts and his use of the  ;D smiley ;D, he now gets what the Fanatics are about and should fit right in. Its very nice that you've stood up for him, but I don't think it's needed.

Plus as Llew has said, the environment here and that of Mantics official forums are two quite different things, even though many of the names are the same. While we're all serious business on the official site, here we're definately not. Nowadays, with the revamping of Mantics official site, most serious game talk has drifted away from here to there, leaving the Fanatics as much more of a social club.  

So... Best not to take anything said on the Fanatics to heart. If we did, we'd have to ban the founding Administrator. ;D

I was under the impression "she" rather than "he", either way they're an equal opportunities modeller, you can find them doing the same for other companies models too. ;)

I think not.  Most women aren't as obsessed with their ideal physical feminine form on a female miniature.  And most of them seem to grasp that there are women with variously sized breasts.

But we can also agree that the Banelegions chicks are horribly over inflated. ;)

Fixed that for you.  ;)

Lol, according to Maelstrom it's your fault if you don't "get it" :P

Having finally gone and *looked* at the Banelegions line...wow.  Thanks for reinforcing every stereotype of gamers, Maelstrom!

But the joke still stands.

Those banelords with boobies are pretty rubbish... But some of the monsters give me the :stiffy:

The women depicted in the Banelegions line are a 100% accurate representation of the kind of lady that male wargamers are most likely to end up having a relationship with....

http://tinyurl.com/cl5nvqb

(http://mylittlefacewhen.com/media/f/img/mlfw2219-c36.gif)

Small and imaginary?

At the very least, completely unreal.

There's something not quite right with that statement.

Ewwww!

 :-*

Now there's an idea...